The Way-Too-Vibrant History of American Illiberalism

With Professor Steven Hahn

If you think there’s a strong American liberal tradition, wait till you hear about the other side of the coin from Professor Steven Hahn. In Illiberal America, and in conversation, Professor Hahn traces illiberal ideas and political currents from hundreds of years ago through the present day. His recasting of history shows, in his words, “what we're up against.”

Steven Hahn is a history professor at NYU. He’s the author of several books, including A Nation Under Our Feet, which won the Pulitzer Prize. 

A condensed transcript of our conversation on Illiberal America, edited for clarity, is below. You can also listen to the audio, which includes a discussion of anti-Catholicism, more on the American inspiration for European fascism, why the KKK wouldn’t make it far on Top Chef, lessons from a little-known multiracial alliance in the 1890s, and more:

Dave Matthews Band helped contextualize some troubling statistics

Ben: You point out that James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and George Washington wondered if the U.S. should have a king instead of a “republican remedy.” Nathaniel Gorham of Massachusetts, when president of the Confederation Congress in the 1780s, even indirectly approached Prince Henry of Prussia about becoming king of the U.S.

...what?

SH: It’s important to look at the revolutionary period not simply for the ideals that end up being expressed in the Declaration of Independence, and to some extent in the Constitution, but for the other, darker currents running through American society, including the embrace of hierarchical authority. 

In the 1790s, it was really unclear what was going to happen. When Washington was elected, many of his contemporaries urged him to claim the office almost indefinitely. From people like Benjamin Franklin and John Adams, there was a sense that the U.S. would eventually end up with a king. Hamilton's idea was to have a chief executive for life!

Ben: I find it delicious when historians challenge our understanding of major figures.

Related, you talk about Abraham Lincoln at length. In 1863, he told tribal leaders from the Plains that “the pale-faced people are numerous and prosperous because they cultivate the earth, produce bread, and depend upon the products of the earth rather than wild game for subsistence.”

If I had known that the path to prosperity was producing bread, I would’ve more readily accepted the 450 offers of extra sourdough starter I got in 2020.

SH: Ha, yes. That quote represents his idea of civilization and savagery. I think Lincoln was not nearly as bad as many politicians of the time, but like many people, he didn’t imagine Native people as really figuring into the destiny of the United States. In effect, he was saying, get out of the way.

Ben: Around the same time, you talk about the prevalence of convict leasing — in the North. Can you explain a little more?

SH: Today we often connect the Exceptions Clause of the 13th Amendment, which allows for involuntary servitude “as a punishment for crime,” to convict leasing in the post-Civil War South. But at the time of the ratification of the 13th Amendment, convict labor was the rule in penitentiaries across the North. In fact, the products of convict labor were used to fortify the Union Army during the Civil War.